The Relevant Issue #142 - 4/18/2008
A Publication of The Polygraph Place



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In this issue:

  1. John Grogan - Part II - Imposter? YES - Swindler? Definitely - Polygraph Examiner? - Not by any Stretch of the Imagination - by Ralph Hilliard
  2. PSCOT Certification Class by AIIP in July 08 - by Chuck Slupski
  3. Upcoming Polygraph Association Seminars - by Nadine Hilliard
  4. In The Private Forums - "Juvenile Parental Waivers for Polygraph Testing. Are they necessary?"
  5. Polygraph Place Offers - "Our two highest exposure ad spots will be available soon. First come, first serve.




1. John Grogan - Part II: Imposter? Yes! Swindler? Definitely! Polygraph Examiner? Not by any Stretch of the Imagination - by Ralph Hilliard

im·pos·ter - noun - one that assumes false identity or title for the purpose of deception.

swin·dler - noun - to obtain money or property by fraud or deceit

The main thrust of this article will be to show clearly that John Grogan is NOT a polygraph examiner, but is merely posing as one. I will show that John is a polygraph imposter and the tests he conducts are completely bogus with him guessing at truth or deception. I will show that he is a swindler in that he has been found guilty in the past of obtaining money by fraud and deceipt and he is now continuing to do this in the polygraph profession by knowingly conducting tests that have no validity.

Let's start at the beginning. John Grogan was a private investigator for many years. As I've already shown in my original article, he cheated the public out of their money, lied to and manipulated that profession until he was finally outed and his PI license was revoked in October 2002.

Only a few months later, he began teaching part of a Private Investigator Course at the American College of Forensic Studies in California. As a trade for his teaching services, he asked to sit in on the 124 hour introduction to polygraph (Never intended to be a complete Polygraph Training Program which would require at least 400 hours by APA standards). John attended this course and instantly proclaimed himself to be a 'certified' polygraph examiner. The only problem is that he isn't one. Please take a moment to read the following letter, written to Jack Trimarco from Joseph Paolella, the owner of American College of Forensic Studies.

Page 1 - click to read
Page 2 - click to read

With his new self-proclaimed Polygraph Status, he reinvented himself and started the Grogan Polygraph Empire of Smoke and Mirrors.

How does he get away with it?

Its a combination of two things. One, the lack of state licensing in California over Polygraph leaving no legal recourse to take action against him. Two, John is a master manipulator. One person I spoke to from his past stated that "John knows very well how to baffle you with bullshit".

And he has done just that over and over again. So we as a profession have an uphill battle, but its one I feel confident we will eventually win if we continue to work together.

What constitutes a real polygraph examiner? Our largest national governing body, the American Polygraph Association lists the following as the minimum requirements to be a full member of the APA. Meeting these requirements are, to date, our best gauge of giving someone the stamp of approval as being a real polygraph examiner.

1. Must be a graduate from an APA accredited polygraph school. All accredited polygraph schools state that a student must complete at least 8 weeks of continuous, full time, in house training and no less than 400 hours of instruction.

2. Must have completed not less than 200 actual polygraph examinations using a standardized polygraph technique as taught at an APA accredited school and hold and current and valid license to practice polygraphy issued by a state or federal agency requiring such license.association.

3. Must have received a baccalaureate degree from a college or university accredited by a regional accreditation board.

John Grogan does not meet criteria #1, we've shown that above. And since he can't meet criteria #1, he has never been able to be a member of ANY recognized polygraph association. So what did John do? He decided to create his own association (Polygraph Examiners of America PEOA). He calls it 'the world's largest examiner network' and yet he has no more than a handful of members and NO Constitution or by-laws and NO standards. Since my last article in which I showed that he had no actual code of ethics either, he has now listed a few points on his code of ethics page. Here is a screen capture of what exactly is on the page:

I was especially intrigued by the third to last point in John's code of ethics:

"Not allow any influence intended to benefit their political, personal or financial well-being while exercising their professional responsibilities".

I think its time for a personal testimony. After reading this, you tell me if John is in violation of his own code of ethics. Of course, even though he is, there is no governing board of PEOA so John would have to discipline himself. One can dream I guess.

Personal Testimony by Kelly Duhs.

                                    JOHN GROGAN:  THE MANIPULATOR

Manipulate:  To manage or influence skillfully, esp. in an unfair manner.  To influence or manage shrewdly or deviously.  To tamper with or falsify for personal gain.

That is my experience with John Grogan and Lisa Javoric.  They manipulate you into believing that if you purchase their polygraph binder and get personally trained by John Grogan which entails accompanying him on 3 exams, your experience and training will then be sufficient to embark on this great new profession of Polygraph Examiner. 

I met with John Grogan in 2/2007 at a small Chinese food restaurant located near the corner of Victory Blvd. and Canoga Avenue in Woodland Hills to purchase my study materials for the Private Investigator test.  I had and continue to work in the field of Private Investigations and have had and continue to have great success thankfully.  John then proceeded to tell me about the polygraph business which he currently worked in.  He talked highly of this business adding that they were in dire need of examiners in the Ventura County area where I currently reside.  He also talked of how lucrative the business could be, actually WOULD BE,  and  that I would most likely be swamped with work and most importantly he would insure that I would be obtaining all the work opportunities from Ventura county as he “liked me” and he had no other PEOA members in the Ventura County area.  Wow, this sounded good.   

He would make me a member of the “Polygraph Examiners Of America” organization and they would refer ALL the Ventura county area work referrals to me, as again,  I was the only current Ventura examiner on PEOA and there were “very few” other examiners in the Ventura County area.  This all sounded great and he insured me that he would fully train me and I would be fully trained and confidant to embark on my new profession which I hoped to be able to do on a full time basis in the near future.  This required me to purchase his “l5 pound polygraph binder” and I would be able to accompany him on 3 exams.  One week after meeting with John, I purchased my Limestone Computerized Polygraph Instrument for $4300.00 and really excited about my new endeavor as I am a 47 year old woman and hoped to be able to retire into this business.  The binder cost me $595.00 and I was starting to think about advertising.  Thinking about my avenues for making my business work.  I have never done anything like this, so it was quite tedious and a little scarey.   

I read the binder, however, did not feel it provided me with all the important information, techniques, different results, etc. I needed to go out and do exams which meant giving individuals answers on issues which could change their lives forever.  Also, I only accompanied him on 2 tests before I started being “mistreated” by his associate Lisa Javoric, who in my opinion is a very evil mean spirited person.  I had as little communication with her as possible due to her attitude and John informed me approximately 6 months after our meeting that he speculated (as he knew Lisa very well) that she felt he and I were “getting too close” ,  she felt threatened,  and she doesn’t like women. I was floored !! My involvement with John to that point was calling him frequently in an attempt to be further and fully trained for this profession.  I needed to understand this profession fully and his binder just didn’t cut it.  (I can provide the binder to you at your request).  John and I met several times at the “Chinese restaurant” where I would go over questions with him that I had jotted down in regards to polygraphs.  Our meetings were brief (approx. 5 meetings total over the 1 year period), and several times there were individuals present, (some who were purchasing materials from him) which made it difficult to really focus on the training which just “didn’t happen”.  My main concern was that when I conducted exams, that I was fully competent and trained to understand everything about the polygraph reading and give accurate results.  Just reading the results of the “sweat gland activity” was not sufficient for me or my client.

According to John, that was the extent of the test.  Monitoring the sweat gland activity, nothing more, nothing less.  My communication with John ended in January of 2008 after almost a year.  I came to know and acknowledge that they (him and Lisa) did not have my best interest at heart.  I had a year filled with being mistreated by John and Lisa which included being yelled at, being talked down to and I was called names.  It has been years since I have dealt so closely with truly “toxic” people.  I told John on numerous occasions that I didn’t appreciate the behavior from him and his colleague and they knew darn well I was at their mercy and had to endure their behavior.  I live my life as a successful, confident, well established and grounded person who experienced over the year a loss of sleep, along with emotional distress over the John Grogan situation.  I am a little disappointed in myself for “taking the ride” as long as I did, however,  I was made to feel that his way was the only way and if you take another way, it could be a huge mistake. It was only until I read “The Polygraph Place” article on “John Grogan the Parasite” in December of 2007 that I started to really realize who I was dealing with. I told John I had read the article on “the polygraph place” and wow, that was some heavy stuff.  His reply was, “Yeah, people can write what they want and it gets posted.” 

Then after cutting off communication with him in January of 2008, I contacted several well known polygraph examiners in the Los Angeles area and was further filled in on John Grogan and was truly amazed with the negative response I received.  How on earth had I gone a year without learning this information from somebody, somewhere, somehow.

This is the reason for me writing this which by no means is fun as it taking up my precious time on a beautiful Sunday and causing me to relive the nightmare.  Here are some other facts I thought you might find interesting and mostly disturbing.  Here goes:

John Grogan further told me:

  • Do not attend a Polygraph Academy, they are a waste of time and money, and you can learn in a “very short” amount of time (5 minutes),  what you learn in a polygraph academy in 8 wasteful weeks.  The academies just want your money.  He would get excited when he knew of someone who was attending the academies as he could obtain inside information in an attempt to discredit them. (The academies)
  • Do not obtain Errors & Omissions and liability insurance as it is a waste of money. Also no reason to be EPPA compliant as employers would never check so go ahead and conduct employee exams.  Also, go ahead and list EPPA compliant on your website as no one would ever check.
  • That the examiner has the option to pass or fail anyone they want, no matter the outcome.  It was “our” decision to do what we want.
  • The fanny pad is not important and don’t use it.

Always charge $395.00 and if  you charge less, you will be blackballed by the polygraph community for undercutting their price.  Mind you, in January of 2008 after ending communication with John Grogan,  a individual informed me that they called John Grogan to have him conduct a polygraph in the Ventura Area.  He quoted them 145.00 if they came to him in the San Fernando area and $295.00 if he came to them.  I again was floored!!  I could not believe what I was hearing. 

  • He mentioned to me that he was having friends of his call Kory Turks 1-800 number to run up his bill. 
  • While briefly meeting John at the Chinese restaurant, I corrected a word in his binder which was misspelled.  He then advised me to include:  “Assisted at Polygraph Seminars”, on my website since I pointed out this error.  However, I had never assisted at one of his polygraph seminars.  
  • He advised me to display on my web site that I had “completed an internship with an active Southern California agency” which I had not.  I had never worked for him or with him. 
  • Only use the MGQT Technique and the only technique I was briefly trained to use.   
  • To solely score the chart using only the sweat gland activity results.     

Other situations and things that occurred over the 1 year period:

  • John gave me the option of accompanying me on my first few exams and I surely took him up on it as I did not want to falsely pass or fail an individual.  I had to pay him half my fee of 395.00 which I did.  My first two clients were attorneys. On both occasions, we both played a part in administering the exam, he a little more involved with the very first test as he actually administered the exam while I viewed the process.  I was a little more involved in the second one as I had to do the “hands on” thing to get it right.  Well, on both occasions, he falsely passed the examinee!! On the first exam and the second exam, several months apart, he passed my client who had actually failed.  After the second exam, I said something to him in the parking lot about the current and previous test he had falsely passed and his reply to me was,  “It’s all about the client.  These are attorneys and you want their business don’t you?  If you fail their client, you will never hear from them again.”.  I couldn’t believe what I was hearing.  He even prepared the reports for me on both exams which I still have possession of.  I eventually called both clients (which was not easy since I am trying to build a business in this area) and revealed to them what had happened.  They understood, although, were not happy.  These were ongoing cases and I knew they should be informed.
  • I never once got a Ventura County referral from John or Lisa in the year I dealt with them.  I then began to pay 95.00 per month to get on his referral list which truly ensured I would get any ventura referrals that came to him. I would be the only and first person they would call.  I still did not get any referrals and had to discontinue that avenue for 95.00 a month as it was getting expensive.  Mind you, they would post referrals for Oxnard and surrounding areas located in Ventura County, however, since the referral was not directly for the city of Ventura, it got posted for other participants to partake in.  Thanks guys.
  • When and if  I was called to conduct a polygraph test,  I had to call Mr. Grogan to go over everything including the control questions to ensure I would be administering the test correctly.  This was a joke and not right, however,  I had not learned sufficiently with the binder information or at our brief meetings.  I had to make this phone call each and every time I received a request for a polygraph.
  • Later in 2007 I hired a guy to build my website.  We then proceeded to purchase my domain name which would be “Ventura County” as in the two months prior I had purchased my business license for my business, Ventura County Polygraph. I regretfully discussed with John my company name and how excited I was about the name. Upon attempting to purchase this domain name, my computer person turns around and says the domain name is already purchased.  I said by who?  He then proceeds to tell me that John Grogan is the owner of that domain name and he had purchased it a few weeks ago.  I was shocked, dismayed and very upset.  I called John in tears and begged him to let me have the domain name that matched my business name.  I continued to beg and plead and he finally he said, “go ahead and take it, I really don’t need it and call Lisa to make the changes”.  I was a bit relieved until I made the call to Lisa immediately.  (that was a problem I had with John, no matter how nasty and mean Lisa was which he knew and often chuckled about, he would always say, “call Lisa.” I was forced to call her on several occasions and endure her behavior)  Upon calling her, she was again mean and  nasty and told me the only way I could obtain ownership of the domain name was to pay them 2500.00 as that is what they paid in advertising fees. I couldn’t believe it.
  • Furthermore, my computer guy ran my ad in the entire California area.  I had to go with “”.  The next thing I know, I am now not receiving any emails from the P.I. Group or  PEOA.  I knew something was up and I called John and said, what’s up?  He then said that Lisa had removed me from these organizations as I was running my ad in the entire California area and “Lisa” (he always blamed Lisa soley for everything even though I knew he was FULLY involved also)  and Lisa felt I was in competition with them.  Oh man, I didn’t think about this when my computer guy ran the California area.  John accused me of doing it purposely.  I immediately, like some scared little puppy dog, had my computer guy come back over and adjust my ad so it only runs in the Ventura County and Santa Barbara areas. And get this, John also told me that Lisa was going to be clicking on my website to run up my charges and also she was going to have people call me from the Los Angeles and surrounding areas with polygraph jobs to see if I took them.  I couldn’t believe it.  John said he told me this because he “likes me.” He said she most likely would not start doing this for a few days as she was sick. Can you believe it.?  I immediately contacted google to let them know about the excessive clicks and they were going to watch out for it, they are great.  Also, two nites later, I received a call from the Los Angeles area, (Encino) re: a polygraph and I could tell by the caller that Lisa had put them up to it.  My reply to the person who did a very bad job at inquiring was to tell Lisa, “nice try.”  I called John and requested he tell his colleague Lisa to “knock it off” and his reply was that he had alerted me and that I “did good.”  Those were his exact words and I continue to be dismayed at what is going on here.  I continued to tell John that I was sick of kissing their butts and they knew they had me at their mercy.
  • Then, there’s more. The following day I start viewing the google search results for the Ventura and Santa Barbara county areas and I see that John and Lisa have bombarded the Ventura and Santa Barbara area with 10 or l5 websites directed to John Grogan 818 883 6969.  There may have been more, it was ridiculous.  Also, there was a new website of his that read,  KATHRYN GROGAN.COM.  FEMALE EXAMINERS, DISCOUNT RATES, ACADEMY TRAINED.  Isn’t that nice??  I’m a female and not academy trained.  When you click onto that website, it has Kathryns picture as I have met her before, although, Johns Phone number 818 883 6969.  This ad ran on all google searches for lie detector and polygraph in my areas. You know John put some money into this one as it ran at the top of all pages. Shoot!  I would call John on this and he would blow me off.  Then the next day, I see that he has an ad that matches mine exactly, however, his says at the bottom and mine says”.  The ad matched exactly!  I called John again on this and actually haven’t seen the exact matched ad since.  I often told John I don’t know how he and Lisa sleep at nite.  Near the end of my communication with him, I divulged to John since so many evil unethical things were occurring, I was now taking notes.  I then asked John what happens when a person in the Los Angeles area purchases his stupid binder and wants to learn polygraph?  What about them advertising in the Los Angeles area?  His reply was, “they are not allowed to advertise anywhere in the Los Angeles area and that is a condition and rule for being a member of PEOA.”  Unbelievable!
  • In January of 2008, I received a request to be on a radio station just after the lie detector show, Moment of Truth,  started airing on tv.  I called John and told him I needed to speak with him regarding the show and about how nervous I was.  I called him several times anxious to speak with him and he never returned my call.  I know that he knew the seriousness of me talking to him and purposely did not call so I would presumably fail on the radio show.  I wasn’t able to reach him for days before the radio show and knew for a fact he was avoiding me. Directly after the radio show, a web site on google in the ventura county area appears showing all of Johns media appearances and wanting more.  
  • John has recently posted on his website that Lisa Javoric has just completed 1400 polygraphs. Do they really think we are that stupid?  The woman has only been in the business for maybe 3 years and when I first started dealing with them in Feb. 07, she was up to 700 exams which also was ridiculous.  So if my calculations are right, that means that in less than a year, she has completed 700 more polygraphs.  That is several a day, every day.  C’mon John and Lisa, completed means that you conducted the exam yourself with a provided report, that is hogwash.
  • On several occasions and during a  Polygraph seminar in late 2007, (which was held in a small room at the back of Nick Harris detectives office in Van Nuys),  we were subject to listening to and observing John and Lisa banter back and forth with sexual and offensive statements to each other.  They truly think this is entertaining and funny, although, many eyes in the room were rolling when they weren’t looking.  It is disgusting to view them acting this way and again, they think it is funny.  
  • In  February of 2008, I spoke with an individual in the Ventura County area who also was manipulated and treated unfairly by John Grogan and Lisa Javoric in early 2007 which continues thru today.  To my dismay and disbelief (although I do believe him), he told me that he was getting numerous bogus phone calls regarding polygraph exams and that a few of the callers said that “Kelly Duhs” gave them the number.  Oh man! Unbelieveable ! This person knew that John Grogan was setting up the bogus phone calls of which he received approximately 200.  I wish this person had notified me immediately that my name was being used as I would have immediately called Grogan and ripped him a new A—hole.  Also, this person told me that John was keeping him apprised of all my business progression, advertising ideas, etc. as to place us both in competition mode.  Here I was, so excited about building my business and I would call John and inform him of my business moves to get his input and opinion.  Then he was turning around and divulging this information to an individual in Ventura who he was placing me in competition with.  I cannot wait to see (and it will happen soon) John Grogan face to face about this one.
  • Referring to the article on The Polygraph Place, here are some additional websites Mr. Grogan has:, Affordable, Kathryn, Affordable,, Southern California Polygraph,,,,,, (on this website, he has a picture depicted of a male, other than himself),  and which happens to be my business name and John was aware of that when he created this website three weeks later after I obtained my business license for Ventura County Polygraph.  Another evil move made by him and Lisa.      

So here I sit with my expensive polygraph instrument and all my advertising in place and I can’t help but think I have done things ass backwards.  Now all I need is proper training which entails taking 8 weeks off of work which should kill my finances, going to an accredited Polygraph School ($4500.00) and room and board while staying in another area five days per week.  And the phone calls for polygraph exams are few and far between. 

Maybe I can use my instrument as a centerpiece in my living room, however, it just doesn’t match my décor.

So shame on John Grogan and Lisa Javoric.  I have spoken to several individuals who attended a legitimate polygraph school  and they informed me of how intense the course is.  You are in class all day, then when you go back to your room, you are required to study throughout the evening as there is soooo much to learn and it’s very involved.  You  live, breathe and eat polygraph information for 8 intense weeks.   

Thank you for taking the time to read my story and if I could be of any further assistance in the demise of John Grogan's manipulative business practices, feel free to contact me.

Kelly Duhs - (As a protection for Kelly, I am not publishing her contact information. If it is important that you reach her, you may call our office and we will screen any contact requests. 770.794.1325. Ralph Hilliard.)


Falsifying results of polygraph examinations for financial gain is the biggest ethical violation in all of Polygraph! I feel terrible for anyone who has ever hired John Grogan to do a polygraph test.

IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT - Although I do not have all the documentation yet, but will have it soon, we are aware of a history of threats, harrassment and violence by John Grogan when someone confronts others with the truth about him. Kelly lives near John's Personal Residence and John knows that. This note is primarily directed at John. John, know that the Moor Park Sheriff's Department has been alerted to this situation and the release of this article. We have located the records of your neighbors complaints of harrassment by you and have made the Moor Park Sheriff's Department aware of those as well. All of Kelly's neighbors have been alerted and provided with photographs of yourself and will call the police if you are seen anywhere near her home or if there is any suspicious activity near her home. Kelly has applied for a temporary restraining order. You are not to call her, talk to her or have anyone else do so for you. Quite simply John, stay away from Kelly because it will be obvious to all who is behind any attempt at retaliation.

Sorry to have to sidetrack this article with this, but most people really are not aware of who they are dealing with in John Grogan, and I am so grateful for those who have stood up in the past and those standing up now. I want them to be protected to best of my ability.

Now back to the story...

In Kelly's testimony, she mentioned that John threw up a website for "Kathryn Grogan", which by the way is his daugther. Here is a screen shot of the website:

Just click this image to see the full size screen grab or you may visit

What is most interesting about this website is the following line on the home page:

"Kathryn is a graduate (8/2004) of an eight-week State of California-approved Polygraph Academy."

First of all, I seriously doubt Kathryn Grogan has ever had even an interest in polygraph, much less went to school and became an examiner.

But what you should really know is that Kathryn Grogan only graduated High School in the spring of 2007. This information was verified through the El Camino Real High School in Woodland Hills, CA. So according to the statement above, she must have attended the 'State of California - approved Polygraph Academy' when she was approximately fourteen or fifteen years old.

We also located Kathryn's facebook profile which shows herself and many of her friends as being part of the "El Camino Real Senior High '07" network. Here is the screen capture, just click to see the full size version.

So either Kathryn knows her dad did this, or John did it without her knowledge. Either way, my question is this. What type of person would drag his own daugther into his own web of lies, just to gain market share?

Judge for yourself.

So what does a John Grogan Polygraph look like?

Luckily, John's ego seems to be so big that he has conducted what are clearly bogus polygraph tests right on camera at least five times.

Test #1 - Joan Rivers on "The Insider"

First, you will need to watch the video and then return here for a breakdown of this 'exam'.

For true examiners, it is instantly obvious this is a completely bogus test. For the sake of the non-polygraph folks who will read this, please allow me to break down different aspects of this video and explain why it is bogus.

Problem #1 - Joan is clearly moving, talking and laughing throughout the test. In a real test, the examinee is instructed to sit very still and quiet during the examination and if they start making movements, they are instructed to stop or the test cannot be completed.. Why? Because if an examinee were allowed to display the type of activity Joan did, there would be absolutely no way to read the charts and make decisions, which is exactly what was happening during this test. To prove this point, take a look at the clip where it shows John Grogan's actual charts on screen for just a brief second.

Even the most experienced examiner would not be able to make any judgments on this chart. When examiners are scoring their charts, there is a criteria called 'purity' that determines whether that tracing will even be counted in the scoring. To determine purity, we first determine if a chart tracing shows change that is caused by something other than the examinees own natural internal physiology. If the change is being caused by some other source (such as talking, laughing, movement, sneezing, reactions to outside noises, etc)., that portion of the tracing would not be scored because there is not enough purity to know that it was not caused by some outside source.

Now take a look at this chart which came from one of my own personal examinations, conducted in the proper quiet environment where the examinee is sitting still and quiet, only speaking to answer questions YES or NO.

The difference between the two charts is vast. In the test John gave to Joan, it is simply impossible to accurately judge the truthfulness of an answer to a question because, in this case, the entire chart has continous disruptions showing a complete lack of purity.

Problem #2 - There are no surprise questions in a polygraph test. It appears as though Joan is hearing these questions for the first time AS the test is being conducted.

In a real polygraph examination, all the questions are reviewed with the examinee prior to running the actual test. In other words, in a real test, there should be no 'shock value' of hearing a question for the first time because that shock of hearing the question first time could cause an internal reaction in the examinee that has nothing to do with whether they are being truthful or deceptive.

Problem #3 - Joan is allowed to answer questions other than simply YES or NO. In a real polygraph test, all answers on the test are either YES or NO. The examinee has already had time when reviewing the questions before the test to clarify any issues that would make them feel like they could not answer clearly with a yes or no.

In Joan's case, she was actually allowed to give her opinion as opposed to actually answering a question.

Thomas Roberts: For all the waiters and waitresses out there... Are you a bad tipper?

Joan Rivers: I think I'm a fabulous tipper.

John Grogan: 98 % false.

There are so many problems with this test question, I don't know where to start, but I'll try.

1. "Are you a bad tipper" is open to anyone's interpretation of what 'bad' is. Real polygraph questions do not leave room for misinterpretation...which is also another reason the questions must be reviewed PRIOR to the real test.

2. Joan didn't even answer the question. Instead, she gave her opinion of how she sees herself.

3. The worst violation here was John Grogan actually saying that Joan's answer...which wasn't an answer, was 98% false. How on earth can someone's opinion be 98% false?

Which leads me to...

Problem #4 - Two times, John Grogan gave percentages as his responses to whether Joan was telling the truth. One was the 98% already mentioned and the second time was after Joan answered that she does regret not making peace with Johnny Carson before he died. John Grogan stated that her statement was 100% truthful.

Why is this a problem?

First, there has never been any software scoring algorithm created for polygraph that scores a question 'on the fly' with a percentage. All scoring algorithms available to examiners ONLY calculate probabilities at the completion of an examination (comparing at least three charts). The reason is that algorithms must calculate their measurments in relation to the measurements of other questions and that is not possible until all questions have been asked.

The bottom line here is that John Grogan literally pulled his opinions about truthfulness or deception directly out of his own imagination based on what he thought would make good television. In other words, the outcome would have been exactly the same even if there was no computer, no instrument and no components attached to Joan, because this was John's opinion based John's interpretation of Joan's answers...period.

Problem #5 - The questions were only asked one time through. In a real test, the examiner asks the same set of questions at least three times. This is another step that helps real examiners see patterns in responses to ensure that a single anomaly does not cause a person to falsely pass or fail.

The real crime in this bogus test is Joan obviously believed she was having a real test conducted and even stated that she was nervous. If the show had given a disclaimer that this test was just for entertainment only, it might be okay to overlook all the obvious flaws in polygraph protocol, but Joan and the public are literally being lied to by John Grogan. If I were Joan and knew the truth about John Grogan, somebody at Insider would be getting a large piece of my mind and a letter from my attorney for not doing their homework before hiring this polygraph imposter.

Test #2 - Kalvin on Fear Factor Friday Radio Show

Here is the video -

The video quality is not that great, but again you can see from this picture that the polygraph charts are completely distorted by all the talking & moving, which makes it impossible to accurately detect deception or truth.

After watching this video, I sure hope that it is obvious to all that a polygraph test done in this manner is completely bogus and John plays right into the show for entertainment value. The compenents were not even properly attached. Take a look at the picture below. Notice the two black tubes on Kalvin's stomach. Those are called Pneumograph tubes and one is supposed to be on the examinee's chest, while the other one should rest on the upper abdomen. The reason for two tubes is to take into account that people breathe differently. Some breathe more from their chest while others breathe more from their gut. If both tubes are on the stomach than any reaction that could have been seen in the chest breathing will be missed, making that second tube pointless. A real examiner would stop the test and re-position the tubes correctly. John doesn't seem to care about anything except his own comic contribution.

Oh and in a real test, examinees don't drink water or ex-lax nor do they move microphones while charts are being collected..

I suppose all this could be forgiven if everyone involved, including the audience was told that this is not a real test, but is merely entertainment. But that is not the case. John is passing this off as a real exam giving bogus conclusions and advertising his services. What about all the people who have come to John's business with serious matters and receive bogus results? This is a public protection issue and we need to take it seriously.

Test #3 - Donny Osmond on 'The Insider'

Here is the video -

I'm not going to go into great detail on this one because its really more of the same. There are distorted and unscorable charts (shown below) and John is making veracity decisions 'on the fly', giving percentages that he is making up in his own head.

But there is one new interesting item here. If you listen closely near the beginning of the video, John is giving verbal instructions to Donny, and you hear him say "Any movement can affect the test, so the stiller you sit, the better". Wow, John himself is confirming what I've been trying to point out in this article, that all this movement, talking and laughing he is allowing on these tests are indeed affecting the outcome and yet he feels he can still confidently say things like "That is 100% truthful". I'll say it again, lest it hasn't sunk in, John Grogan is NOT a polygraph examiner, he is a fraud and an imposter.

Test #4 - Samy K in his 'moment of truth' style polygraph

Here is the video -

I don't know who SamyK is, but it appears he wanted to have his own 'moment of truth' style polygraph test where his friends had a list of questions for him. Once again, the test is a complete joke, however, there is something even more disturbing here. While John is attaching the pneumograph tubes to Samy, he takes his hand off the tube and quickly rubs Samy's chest while asking him "Do you work out?" This act is completely inappropriate and would never be tolerated in a real polygraph situation. I am an examiner and I can assure you there is absolutely no test related reason to rub someone's chest like this. If Samy so chose, he would have an excellent case for sexual harrassment. A real examiner would be fired on the spot if they did something like this in a law enforcement or government agency setting. Of course there are two other testimonials in this article that speak to John's sexual talk and advances. Looks like we caught him in the act.

Again I ask you. Is this someone you want to trust with a serious life issue?

I'd like to mention at this point, that George Maschke, the owner of antipolygraph has always taken every opportunity to expose a mistake or a falsehood in the polygraph profession, but its interesting that he remains so quiet regarding John Grogan, who is obviously a fraud. Makes you wonder, doesn't it? George, where is that bulldog tenacity to try to dig up dirt when it comes to an obvious fraud such as Grogan?

Test #5 - Hunter Greene vs. 'The Lie Detector'

Here is the video -

More of the same.

John tells Hunter how sensitive the equipment is and that he should remain still. But as previously shown, all kinds of movements from his other tests appear not to bother him.

After each question, John makes an instant decision, which is impossible to do with any degree of accuracy.

He only asks the questions once which I've explained earlier invalidates the exam.

These are five examples of invalid tests, even according to John's own standards. John has a page on his website that states "How to choose a lie-detection Professional".

You can see the question list by clicking on the screen capture to the right.

This page starts off with this dire warning:

The outcome of a lie-detection examination could have life-altering effects.
To help choose a qualified examiner,
ask them these 18 questions:
(and don't take NO for an answer!)

And ends with this:

If the examiner can not answer YES to all 18 questions above,
it is time to immediately look for a more experienced professional!

I'm going to prove that John himself cannot answer YES to all 18 questions.

Some of the questions are legitimate questions, however, this question list is built to basically convince people that there is no other place you can go for your polygraph but John Grogan.

For example, question #17 asks:

#17: "Have you completed at least 4000 polygraph examinations?"      YES ___ NO ___

First, I seriously doubt John has ever conducted 4,000 examinations since declaring himself a polygraph examiner in 2003.. Regardless, this statement implies that anyone without 4,000 examinations under their belt is not qualified. So when exactly did John become qualified? Does this mean his first 3,999 examinations can't be counted on?

Question #4 asks:

#4: "Do you test the examinee three complete times?"      YES ___ NO ___

I do John, but you are on video five times only asking the questions one time through. The best part is John's answer to this question on his own website. If you visit the page, there is a link at the bottom that says:

Click Here to see our answers!: Our 18 answers

I have posted John's response to this question here for your convenience.

#4: "Do you test the examinee three complete times?"      YES!

Do they test the examinee THREE times on the same set of questions?
There is far more chance that a person can wrongly
pass or fail if only one test is administered.

Many persons can wrongly pass or fail on the first test, due to
'initial questioning shock'. Some examiners only collect two charts
(that is, do two tests). Three testings takes longer but is best.

We test 3 times, with a 5-minute break in between each.
Scoring of each chart is done during the breaks.

John did not run three tests on Joan Rivers, Donny Osmond, Kalvin, Samy and Hunter. He ran one chart (test) on each of them.

And he tells us that 'Scoring of each chart is done during the breaks.' That is interesting isn't it? How can he score each chart after the test is run when he is clearly scoring the charts and giving opinions DURING the test.

Question #11 asks:

#11: "Do you only do lie-detection work?"      YES ___ NO ___

According to his own websites (all large centered phrases are copied and pasted directly from his websites), John does all kinds of other work than just lie detection. Let's take a look.

John does collections:

Collections, especially on 'Bad Checks'
(NSF:Non-Sufficient Funds) or Closed Account)
has been my specialty for 30 years.
Call (818) 883-6969
for prompt assistance!

By the way, that is the same phone number he uses for his polygraph business.

John does Process Service:

John has been a Bonded & Registered
Process Server continuously for nearly 30 years!
He can mail you literature for this service.

Call (818) 883-6969
for prompt assistance!


John sells access to celebrities: (image as shown on his website, just visit the site and click on the 'database' button.)

According to his website he also does:

  • Interviews
  • TSCM De-bugging
  • Finger Printing
  • DNA testing
  • Security Cameras
  • GPS Tracking
  • Firearm Training
  • Hard to Find Old Records name just a few. Seems pretty clear John does not only do Lie Detection work.

Question #15 asks:

#15: "Do you have at least 10 years of polygraph experience?"      YES ___ NO ___

As discussed earlier, John's only polygraph training happened in early 2003, which gives him no more than five years to date that he could be giving polygraph examinations.

Bottom line folks, is that John Grogan will say and do whatever is necessary to make the next buck and he has proven that he has no integrity. (story continues below)

2. PSCOT Certification Class by AIIP in July 2008 - by Chuck Slupski

Nadine & I thank you for supporting our sponsors, Chuck Slupski and the American International Institute of Polygraph.

John Grogan has been caught lying on live radio

John was a guest polygraph consultant on the Tom Leykis radio show in March, 2008. The producers did not know who they had hired, but luckily, Jack Trimarco did. Jack is a former FBI agent and the former Inspector General for the Department of Energy Polygraph Unit. He is also currently serving as a board member of the Ethics Committee for CAPE(California Association of Polygraph Examiners).

Jack called into the show and told all 4.5 million listeners the truth about John Grogan. John squirmed a bit and outright lied about a couple of important issues. If you have not heard the radio program, you may listen to the two links that follow. (Warning - some of the material in the Tom Leykis show may be offensive to some, so listen at your own risk) For everyone's convenience, I have transcribed as best I could the key parts of the show below to prove that John is a liar and a fraud.

First let me explain the backdrop. Tom Leykis was to have Howard Schulz, the executive producer of Fox's Moment of Truth, take a polygraph on radio about whether the show is real or fake. Howard decided not to come because he did not want John Grogan to give him the polygraph because he found out the truth about Grogan. So we pick up where Tom is asking John his opinion about the Moment of Truth show.

Segment One - My (Ralph's) comments and clarifications are in blue.

TL = Tom Leykis - JG = John Grogan

TL: - John, what is your reaction to what you just heard

JG: - Well, its an entertaining show, but the questions used in many cases don't meet our profession guidelines and its not accurate.

TL: - You are saying the show is not accurate?

JG: - Its a good entertainment show, but some of the questions are inappropriate.

TL: - ...Polygraph testing is not as TV friendly as people would imagine because there's long
gaps of time you have to wait...and tell us how that works.

JG: - A standard polygraph, whether it's FBI, Police or Private is a 10 question script made up of three question types and there's 25 seconds in between each question, that's to let the body calm down from reacting to one question before we hit them with another.

Here Tom makes a few statements about how the public wouldn't know that the test was done prior to the show rather than on the show...and then he continues with...

TL: - So its really not a polygraph test being done at all.

JG: - There may have been one done prior (to the show airing), but even if it had been done, some of the questions aren't up to our standards.

TL: - For example...

JG: - Polygraph questions are supposed to be about events that either did or did not happen, not feeling questions, such as, If you had to commit a sin to cancel your debts, would you? ..or If the opportunity arised, would you hook up with an ex? Those aren't black and white events that either did or did not happen.

TL: How about that one question, the women who got all the attention on that show, who lost all
the money, the question was "Do you think you are a good person?"

JG: - Thats in the eyes of the beholder and its not a proper question. I test alot of sex offenders and i ask them....we don't ask them any longer 'did you do anything innappropriate?' because they think that sex with children is appropriate.

Whooooa!!! Stop the train. Did anybody catch that. John believes that "Do you think you are a good person" is not a proper question. So what about the question that was asked of Joan Rivers." Are you a bad tipper?" Isn't that also in the eye of the beholder?

Or how about when Donny Osmond was asked "Do you think you are the best looking Osmond? Well that would be a matter of opinion wouldn't it? It certainly doesn't seem like a 'black and white event' to me.

Or how about, after feeling up Samy's chest, John asked "If the opportunity presented itself, would you consider getting back together with any of your former boyfriends or girlfriends?"

Doesn't that sound amazingly similar to "If the opportunity arised, would you hook up with an ex?" That is the question John gave as an example of an IMPROPER QUESTION on the Tom Leykis show above.

Or how about when he asks Hunter "Would you commit a sin to have your credit card debt erased?" That sure sounds like the same question that he told Tom Leykis was a 'feeling question' and not a proper question for a test. And I quote John here:

Polygraph questions are supposed to be about events that either did or did not happen, not feeling questions, such as, If you had to commit a sin to cancel your debts, would you?

Let's go back now to John's quote on the Tom Leykis show: Well, its an entertaining show, but the questions used in many cases don't meet our profession guidelines and its not accurate.

I'm pretty sure that John just confessed to the fact that all these live TV and video taped polygraphs he has been conducting are not accurate and not up to his profession guidelines. I guess the guidelines simply don't pertain to John.

Segment Two - Jack Trimarco calls into the program to set the record straight.

JT = Jack Trimarco - JG = John Grogan

JT: - Well Tom, Honestly, I haven't been listening to your show but my phone has lit up. My name is Jack Trimarco. Im a retired FBI agent. I'm former head of the polygraph unit for the FBI in Los Angeles for seven years. Former Inspector General for the Department of Energy Polygraph Program for two and currently Chairman of the Ethics Committee for the California Association of Polygraph Examiners. And John Grogan is a fake. He is not a polygraph examiner. He is quite accurately known as the polygraph parasite. He's been convicted of 26 counts of fraud and had his PI license pulled from him and he instantly became a world known polygraph examiner. Its all BS. He's never graduated from a polygraph school. and everyone knows him for what he is. And I can't believe he has the 'things' to go on a radio show and have people like me listen and expect not to be disclosed.

JG: I think jack's hair dye is getting to him. I have never been convicted of any such thing.

JT: John, do you still have a PI license?

JG: (Isn't John talented?, He can say wow and then say it again backwards)

JT: John, do you still have a PI license?

JG: No, but it has nothing to do with fraud.

I beg to differ. The documents showing John had his PI License revoked is in my first article. Please read them if you haven't already. But for the purpose of showing that John is clearly lying when he says it has nothing to do with fraud, I'll quote point #11 of the Findings of Fact in his 2002 case in front of Judge Paul Hogan.

"11. The conduct set out hereinabove constituted FRAUD and dishonest conduct and was deceiptful." Nuff said!

JT: - you know what, thats a lie to

JG - oh my god...well jack...

JT: - why don't you contact your lawyers and sue...

JG: - jack why don't you bring in proof to tom leykis that I have been convicted of one count of fraud let alone 26.

JT: - 26 counts of fraud. the state of california pulled your PI license and your violating that by claiming to be a polygraph examiner. its complete fraud john. you are an embarrassment to the law enforcement community. and you're an embarrassment to the polygraph, to the real polygraph examiners of the world. Your nothing more than a fraud and your about to get burned.

JG: - Jack, bring in your proof to tom leykis.

JT: - I'll bring in my proof to the DA in ventura county on tuesday morning John.
You purgered yourself. you swore under oath about things that you aren't and I'm
going to get you convicted.

After all is said and done, the main point I want to make is that what John says is not what John does. He is an Imposter and will manipulate anyone or any situation to benefit himself.

There is more to the story, but it's time to bring this article to a close. Part III will be coming next and it will include a pdf download of the complete complaint history that Jack mentioned on the Tom Leykis show. It will also include proof that John Grogan indeed has been charged with criminal behavior in the past.

We need your help. If you know anyone in the media who would be interested in using this material for a public interest story, please send it to them. Informing the public about this parasite is our best chance to protect them. Also, please pass this on to all examiners you know, especially if they handle tests in the private sector. If we can inform all examiners of what is happening, there will be no one for John to manipulate and suck into his PEOA polygraph empire of smoke and mirrors.

Ralph Hilliard - President - The Polygraph Place

P.S. My email box is open, so please keep me informed of any hot polygraph news and I'll do my best to help spread that to others.

3. Upcoming Polygraph Association Seminars by Nadine Hilliard

If you are the seminar chairperson for your assocation, please send Nadine info for your next seminar as soon as you have it available. Thanks so much. Help us help you spread the word about your next training session or business meeting.

Seminar Dates Association(s) Location Contact
5/12 - 5/13/2008 Maryland Polygraph Association Laurel, MD Joy Neal
5/19 - 5/23/2008 American Assoc. of Police Polygraphists Jacksonville, FL Karen Clark
8/17 - 8/22/2008 American Polygraph Association Indianapolis, IN Robbie Bennett
11/5 - 11/7/2008 Tri-State Polygraph Assoc.
Kansas, Missouri, Nebraska
Branson, MO John Hurlock

(The Polygraph Place)

4. In the Private Forums - "Juvenile Parental Waivers for Polygraph Testing. Are they necessary?"

A partial post from the examiner only private forums:

"...His attorney has the parental waiver form and asked why it is required. The more I thought about it, the more I thought my only answer is "Because we have always required one".

Do any of you have a juveline waiver form or other type of parental consent form? Is it some type of law, regulation, standard or just your policy? Do we even need one?"

What? Not yet a member of the FREE private forums for examiners only?
The private forums now have so many examiners registered I just stopped keeping count. The wealth of knowledge, information and wisdom that has amassed here is staggering. If you are an examiner, come and be part of this growing community.

Registration is a three step process.

1. Fill out the registration form.

2. After submitting the form, you will receive an email from the automated system with a username and password. Forward that email to me ( and include proof that you are an examiner. License, School, Department, Association Memberships, etc. If you do not provide something that we can independantly verify, you will not be given access.

3. Be patient. We have to verify your information and once we have, we'll authorize your login and be in contact with you.

5. Polygraph Place Offers - "Our two highest exposure ads will soon be available. First come, first served."

The Spotlight/Specialist Home Page Banners (ones currently occupied by Jack Trimarco and Patrick Coffey) have run their cycle and will be available within the next two weeks. The home page 'skyscraper' vertical banners are terrific for any examiner who desires exposure on a national scale and a long term web page that continues even after the ad campaign ends.. These have been ideal for those who desire speaking engagements, national traveling polygraph testing, foreign language specialists, media appearances and more.

As always, these are first come, first serve and the ad term is for three months. If interested, call Nadine or myself at 770.794.1325 to reserve a spot and get more information.

Polygraph Place Services:

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Call or email us today:

Phone: 770.794.1325


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