posted 06-02-2002 10:06 AM            

What does it mean being right in the middle...not wholly deceptive nor wholly telling the truth??

What does it means leaning towards the truth but uncomfortable with the question due to other thought involved with that question??

Lastly how come lie dectector said this test is harder to admission to someone that has trouble sitting for long periods of time. (someone who is always like this-not just on the day of the test)..and that last test of the 3 (when they repeat questions for the 3rd time is always the most shakey one-and brings the scoring down??)

Thanks in advance.

Just paid $600.00 for this test for my spouse.

posted 06-03-2002 07:36 PM            

It depends on the testing format used by the examiner. If the backster zone comparison test format was used a +9 would be a conclusive result,if a score of +8 was the end result it would be inconclusive. All scoring allows for a grey area in an effort to eliminate errors,if the score falls within this range it would be an inconclusive finding and a re-test of the subject would be recommended. Inconclusive findings do not tell you much at all, a +8 is close to the minimum passing score but is still inconclusive.

To answer your second question if a subject holds back information about, but is not directly lying to a question,this can cause a problem on the test and create inconclusive results or even deceptive outcomes as doing this is a form of deception and will show up as such.
It is like being asked a question about stealing an employers money e.g. did you steal the missing $----. The subject did not steal the money, but saw the person who did, but decides not to tell anyone, takes the test and fails or comes out inconclusive. The subject is attempting deception by concealing information relevant to the issue even though they did not steal the money, that is why we stress it is vital to tell the examiner everything that is on your mind in relation to the incident so that when the question is answered there is no self doubt or grey area when the answer is given.

This may have been what your examiner was talking about . You should ask your examiner these questions and if the outcome was inconclusive ask about a re-test. This is usually done free of charge,but it depends on how your examiner operates.

posted 06-04-2002 10:21 AM            

This examiner spent hours on the first day going over the questions and took a test. But he was interuppted so many times with phones etc before the test; that he didn't get to the test for hours. By this time my spouse was so hungry from not eating for 8 hours that he was fidgetting too much.
He is a weight lifter; and has a fast metabolism and always get this way if he doesn't eat.
Therefore he had to be retest 10 days later-due to scheduling problems.

He was asked bascially 4 questions for 3 tests (as the procedure goes).

The first question he scored 100% truthful.
The other two leaning to the truth with that 8 point; and the last right in the middle.

The examiner felt he was being truthful due to his past experiences in dealing with people for years.

But that is just his feelings.

To me I feel that with these scores for these 4 set of questions he basically past the test; due to the horrible nature of why I wanted him to be tested. He was said to commit a crime; which doesn't make sense; and he was with me during those period of times 8 years ago.

I am not sure I should post the questions here..but I still have a copy of those questions.

Thank you again.

posted 06-04-2002 10:24 AM            

Does all that make any sense?????

We are still separated since March 21 due to the fact of this incident. Test was given last Thursday..his lawyer advised him never to take a lie test; but he wanted to do so.

Thanks again.

[This message has been edited by NYCLady (edited 06-04-2002).]

posted 06-04-2002 06:43 PM            

Due to his breathing problems and other factors which can cloud results sometimes the examiner can only offer his opinion if minimum scores are not reached.

However this opinion is not supported by the polygraph results if minimum scores are not obtained for whatever reason.

Of course the ideal outcome is a conclusive result and if you still have doubts a second test focusing only on the question that scored the lowest would tell you the examiner was right, if your husband passed.

If you are happy with the outcome and just have questions, you need to speak with the examiner that conducted the test for clarification.

posted 06-05-2002 11:08 AM            

He was tested two Thursdays ago; the day before his court appointment. He was nervous due to that fact. I do know he refused the plea bargain of probation; and have another court appointment in July. His lawyer has informed him that since he has no prior record at 39 years old(and this is based on heresay) that he will be found not guilty.

His lawyer used to work on the D.A. side and had cases of this nature before; he said now that he works privately he would not have taken this case if he thought my spouse was guilty.

I will leave it up to him to be retested when his nerves are calm(after court case is over)..if he wants to return home to his wife and our 6 year old son.

The person who made this allegations was asked to be tested and has refused repeatedly; and refuses to testify against him at court next month.

I have discovered that this family member has lied and acted manipulative in other areas; yet the allegations are of such of horrible nature; that I do not feel morally right to continue our 9 year marriage.

I have done research and do not feel he was in those places at those times.(but anything is possible.).

I feel that this is my course to find out the truth...since I have research polygraphs and do not think anyone can be found not guilty that is really guilty (only inconclusive).

Thank you once again for the time you took responding to my thread.

NYC Lady

[This message has been edited by NYCLady (edited 06-05-2002).]

[This message has been edited by NYCLady (edited 06-05-2002).]

posted 06-05-2002 07:19 PM            

I would suggest that you make sure the test format that is used for the second test is a backster zone comparison or a matte quadri-track zone comparison test .

The accuracy of these two formats has been shown to be close to 100% in field and lab studies for crimes similar in nature to the one your husband has been accused of.

It would be unfortunate to end your marriage over an allegation that turned out to be a fabrication.

A true single specific issue polygraph test like the two mentioned above, with a conclusive result will put to rest any doubt.

Also check to make sure the examiner is a member of the American Polygraph Association or National Polygraph Association Or the American Association of Police Polygraphists and registered to operate in your state.

Also check that the examiner has attended annual Association seminars.

posted 06-05-2002 10:38 PM            

I am answering this e-mail at your request from the e-mail that you sent to me. What "Lielabs" has told you is correct. I, however, would like to add to his thorough responses.

There is no such polygraph decision as "an 8 leaning toward the truth". Either the person is deceptive, non-deceptive, or inconslusive. There are no other allowable decisions on a specific issue polygraph examination. As Lielabs indicated, "cut-off" scores are just that - "cut-offs". If they don't make the score, then they either pass the examination, fail the examination, or their truthfulness or deception cannot be determined (which as Lielabs described, can be for any number of reasons).

I don't know who conducted the examination, but none of us is qualified to state that the examinee was "thinking about something that affected the question". We have no way of knowing what they were thinking about or even if they were thinking about anything even remotely related to the issue. He might have been thinking about what was for dinner that night at the time that particular question was asked - especially since you stated that he was very hungry at the time.

As for the statement that the final test question sequence is "always the most shakey one and brings the scoring down" is not consistent with the 15,000+ polygraph examinations that I have conducted nor is it consistent with the thousands of examinations that I have quality-controlled for polygraph school students that have graduated from my polygraph schools and from others who have sought a "second opinion".

Also, any polygraphist who allows themselves to be interrupted during a polygraph interview to answer the telephone at all (except in emergencies) but especially to answer it to the point that the examinee has had to sit for hours and the actual examination has to be re-scheduled is totally unprofessional, and the examination conditions make the examination, not only invalid, but also a violation of established standards of practice.

I agree that further testing with that person
(I hesitate to call them a polygraphist anymore)would be a waste of time. There are others in your area who are highly-professional, and who will give you conclusive results not "feelings" due to his "great experience in dealing with people for years". You didn't pay $600 for "feelings" - you paid for results. Notwithstanding the fact that some people will have inconclusive results due to any number of factors as explained by Lielabs, your husband's results were most probably the aftermath of the unprofessional interview and test conditions.

If you wish to file a complaint, I will be happy to help you do so if you will e-mail me with more details (questions asked that you said that you still had, name of the person who conducted the alleged "polygraph test", etc).

Obviously, all that I have stated here is based upon the premise that you have reported the true and actual facts on your posts. I am not disputing, in any way, that what you say is untrue or inaccurate. We have had in the past, however, many people who posted false information about alleged improprieties and abuses with the polygraph only to find that the stories were false and posted to embarrass the polygraph profession.

If what you have stated is true, then the person who you employed to do the examination has embarrassed the polygraph profession. We are all not like him though, and Lielabs or I would be happy to make recommendations for competent polygraph examiners in your area.

Good luck and I hope this helps!

Elmer Criswell, Moderator

posted 06-06-2002 09:03 AM            

This examiner spent hours learning the story and than having to formulate the questions and answering phone calls in-between from other people wanting to send employees etc.

During the actual test the first day he didn't take phone calls..it was in the backroom. He couldn't get any actual results due to the fidgeted movements.

That is why he agreed that for an additional 200.00 (first time paid 400.00) he (my spouse) could return. He explained he had to charge the 200.00 because he spent an unusual large amount of time already. I agreed to that; because he did spend hours.

The 2nd visit I did not attend. He called me up on the phone; as we agreed; so he could give me the results.

He did say the first two test were easy to perform; but the last of the series the movements began. My spouse has trouble with movements all the time.(which has always been irritating to me).

He did state on the phone; that these types of results would not hold up in a court to prove him innocent. He seemed very interested in this case (perhaps because he has no past experience in this type of case??)that is only my feelings.

I think I am going to have to find someone and this time ask if they specifically have these types of experience or not. (I do know he had someone waiting for an employee type test; and the phone calls he received were from employers wanting to test employees). I did not think out of ignorance to ask if he ever did these types of specific criminal questions.

He went over each question he asked; no surprise questions; but what was prepared 10 days earlier. He explained the findings of each of them specifically.

He said the scores that were 8 were leaning towards telling the truth; but wouldn't hold up in court (but this was just a personal thing; and permission paper was signed that way)...as being truthful and no longer a suspect.
He felt with all the informations we gave him and my spouse behavior of movements that I should save my money and not have him tested again.

I really thought he was a educated mature person and wouldn't never have him investigated for going into details of each questions and how it was scored.

I believe (but not sure) that you are trying to tell me he should have just told me the results were inconclusive; and not get into details for each questions???--like saying 8 leaning towards truthfulness.

I think he just felt my emotional pain and confusion and wanted to try to help me as best as possible. (but that is just my personal opinion).

I think I will look for another examiner and first ask all the questions you have told me to ask them; and also find out their past experience in this type of questions.

From the past week of searching websites I feel polographs are an accurate way of finding out the truth.

I must get personal and tell you that we have a beautiful Kindergarten boy who wants his father to return home; and not just visit 3 times a week. But at 41 years old I am too old to want to make any mistakes or live with anyone that could have committed a crime of this nature 8 to 6 years ago.

From my name you can see I live in one of the boroughs New York City. If you can e-mail to recommend a polygraph in my area it would be deeply appreciated.
My spouse told me yesterday; after I performed this layperson research that he would not take another one. He felt humiliated and embarrassed. I am hoping that after his case in July is over; he would do this for his own sake if he wants to return home.(but I have to leave it up to him).

BTW we had a very good marriage for 9 years; just the normal bumps and readjustments etc.

The only thing I knew about polygraphs was from an occassional t.v. show. I have never really had any opinions or thoughts on them. I thought of this only from t.v. shows...and didn't know how complicated they were. I thought I would get guilty or not guilty; and did not know about movements interfering with machines; and inconclusive or numbers etc.

I must admit some of the terms you use and type of tests I have no inkling of what you mean.

Once again I thank you wholeheartedly for the time you took to post to my threads.

Sincerely,
NYC Lady.

posted 06-06-2002 10:03 AM            

Based upon your latest post, I owe the polygraphist a partial apology for anything disparaging I said; however, the person should have gotten enough information about the case to set a fee and not have to charge more unless additional testing was needed. Regardless of whether he was getting calls in the back room or in the presence of your husband, there still should have been no interruptions except emergencies. The test conditions in that respect were unsuitable and still violate the standards of practice. I will contact you directly as to referrals.
Thank you for sheeding the additional light on the situation since it does revise my assessment of the situation as it was first presented.

Sincerely,

posted 06-06-2002 11:35 AM            

Sincerely yours,